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Struggling With Boundaries? You May Be A Super-Helper – Jess Baker & Rod Vincent (POY 50)

Super-helpers are people who care at the expense of their well-being. Jess Baker and Rod Vincent wrote a book to help them protect themselves.

Super-helpers are people who care at the expense of their well-being. Jess Baker and Rod Vincent wrote a book to help them protect themselves.

Episode Notes

This month, I’d like to introduce you to Jess Baker and Rod Vincent. They’re a couple of chartered psychologists who live in Ludlow, England, a little over an hour west of Birmingham in Shropshire. Jess is a business psychologist who started writing a book during the COVID-19 pandemic, and she recruited her partner Rod to help. They published The Super-Helper Syndrome: A Survival Guide for Compassionate People in 2022.

The short version of the book goes something like this. Super-helpers are people who help others compulsively, to the point where they neglect their own self-care. They often start helping others out of a place of love but then accumulate irrational beliefs that turn helping into a form of self-harm. Rod will explain the four irrational beliefs they’ve identified.

The book includes tools and activities to help super-helpers let go of these beliefs and set boundaries for themselves around helping and self-care. It’s a remarkable piece of work, and it’s my favorite book I’ve read recently. That’s why I’m honored that Jess and Rod made time to talk with me. I hope you’ll check it out wherever you buy books and recommend it to the helpers in your life. I promise it’s like no other self-help book out there.

Here’s my conversation with Jess Baker and Rod Vincent, co-authors of The Super-Helper Syndrome.

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Interview Transcript (Draft)

Please note: Microsoft 365 generated the transcript below. Parts have been lightly edited but it may be incomplete.

Josh
I’m curious, was there a eureka moment or an a-ha moment where you thought, ‘You know, we should write a guide about Super-Helper Syndrome and what it is’?

Jess
I kept having—the most recent examples were happening quite quickly and one after another. This is kind of leading up to 2017/2018 and then definitely into 2019. In my private coaching practice, I realized that more people who were coming to me for coaching were saying things like “I’m”—or expressing in other ways—”high in empathy [with] a high desire to and need to look after others,” perhaps with a young family, aging parents, an aging spouse, or what have you. This kind of almost constant stream of people [was] saying or expressing, “I’m helping other people to the detriment of my own well-being,” and saying that in a myriad of other ways, whether it was at work or in their personal life. Obviously those things are going to impact other areas of your life anyway.

When I would say to Rod then, “Oh, I just I think I’ve got another coaching client with the same issue.” In my head, I was calling them or referring to them as super-helpers in a kind of playful way, but never diagnosing or never trying to label any of my clients directly—just talking about the situation, the behaviors, and the excuses I could hear and the language they were using.

When I said actually, “I think I need to write a book because I can’t be a private coach to everybody in the world with this problem and I think they are out there,” then I began to realize there are different milestones in my own life—and Rod also in your own life, as well—childhood messages, the role models, the people we’ve worked with, people in our family and our communities, who we’ve also seen helped the detriment their own well-being. That’s how it came together.

Josh
So you’re both chartered psychologists, and I have to ask because I’m not sure: Do you have separate practices or do you share a practice? How did you [both] get experience with super-helpers?

Rod
I ran a basically a business psychology consultancy for many years which was about things like leadership development. It started off with assessments: psychometrics and job assessments. We moved on into more leadership development and a lot of coaching as well, and so not clinical—like, not working in hospitals or that sort of environment.

I’ve left that business now. I’m not doing that anymore, so I don’t really practice in in that sense. My main activity in related psychology has been writing the book recently with you, [Jess]. You know, you’re still practicing.

Jess
Yeah, as a business psychologist. I did start my career in clinical psychology, working in the National Health Service here in the UK. And I wanted to do that since I was 12, for reasons it will become apparent once you’ve read the book as well. After a few years in the NHS—amazing work, great work, worked with some fantastic people and some patients and service users—but I realized that I was a better fit to the business psychology world.

I went into management consultancy and also then became self-employed and ran my own private coaching practice. That’s what I still do. I run things like webinars and well-being programs for my corporate clients, and speaking events. I also run online programs of my own as well. Some of them have been really popular, so we bring a lot of different experiences to this book and to come to the very nub of it really.

I tried to write the book by myself for a few months when we were locked down here in the UK, locked down in March 2020. I wrote a whole list of things I wanted to do with the time that was given to us. It included lots of little things like, you know, drink less, get really healthy, walk every day, write a book.

Josh
Typical things, yeah. [laughs]

Jess
Yeah, you know, I drank more, ate less healthily, and didn’t write a book. [laughs]

All that time, Rod and I would go on walks and talk about the themes, and he’d be encouraging me, “Have you written a book proposal yet?” It wasn’t until September of that year, I said to him, “Actually, I think I need your help here.” He’d already written poetry, stories, a couple of novels, and won awards. Why wasn’t I tapping into this resource? Not only that, he brings loads of psychology experience to it, too.

Thankfully, you [Rod] said yes. That’s probably the only reason why it got written, to be honest.

Rod
Asking for help is not one of the things that Jess finds easiest in life. That’s a big theme in the book, that people who help others very seldom ask for help themselves. I find it difficult to ask for help, as well.

Josh
Yeah, same here.

Jess
Do you find it difficult to ask for help, Josh?

Josh
Do I find it difficult to ask for help? Most definitely. I think it depends on what the situation is.

Relating to what the concept of a super-helper is, I guess there are times that come and go where I may identify as a super-helper. Now I think I have that mostly under control. I’ve been in hundreds of hours of therapy to help me with those sorts of things.

I do know a lot of people that have been super-helpers. There’s one example that came to mind as I was reading the book. I’m a data analyst by day and I’ve primarily worked in education data with school districts. I can clearly remember being on a call with someone at a school district who had just a deathly cough. I said, “Are you OK? Do you need to take time off?” She said, “Well, if I take time off, then no one will do my work.” I knew she was probably working 60 or maybe 70/80 hours that week. That’s just the kind of example I think of because I’ve had those kinds of encounters in my life.

I think [of] your example, Jess. There’s a beautifully written final chapter in this book about your experience growing up with your mom, and I just admire that you were able to discover how to break the Super-Helper Syndrome for yourself.

Jess
Yeah. I refer to myself as a recovering compulsive helper. I have experienced most of the behaviors and the excuses and certainly the four irrational beliefs that we pull out in the earlier part of the book. It was the “they couldn’t survive without me” belief. The thought, really, that was the one that surprised both of us the most.

We had in our head an idea of the various profiles of different super-helpers, so we never defined a super-helper is. We talk about the syndrome itself and the collection of behaviors and emotional reactions as well to finding yourself in this condition. What we find is that so many people will readily acknowledge, “Oh, I’m a super-helper,” and they are so different. There is not really one criteria. That’s not our aim either, to try and pigeonhole people or give you another tick box exercise, but rather draw your attention to the things that can happen as a result of giving more than you’ve got to give—helping to the detriment of your very well-being.

The “they couldn’t survive without me belief” came at the last stage, really putting the theory together. That really hit home for me. I grew up with a mother who would pretty much tell me, almost verbatim, “I can’t survive without you. I need you. You need to do this and this.” Even though I was, you know, perhaps six years old, eight years old, ten years old, I was expected and asked to or told to look after her in ways that I just wasn’t—and no child really is—well-developed to give that kind of support, emotional support, physical help.

Realizing “Wow, there are some deep childhood messages there. I need to break away from and understand better,” I’ve done loads of work. You [Josh] said earlier—psychotherapy is brilliant. I love it. If I could afford a psychotherapist 24/7, I would.

Some people will say “Was it cathartic writing the book, Jess?” and I’ll say “Not really.” In fact, it was cathartic when I did loads of work, for the last couple of decades, I’ve been working really hard on myself, really hard in these scenes of who am I? What do I need? Because I was never asked. What I needed or wanted, identifying that for myself, identifying that it’s okay to have boundaries, it’s okay not to feel selfish when you take time for yourself.

I am a living and breathing example of lots of the things that we discussed in Chapter 11. I’m really delighted to hear you say that you’ve enjoyed reading it. I think I personally think it’s Rod’s masterpiece.

[Rod], tell the story of how it came about. Do you remember? You don’t mind, [Josh]? Can we indulge?

Josh
Yes, please!

Rod
I’ll just play my own trumpet for a moment. [laughs] I had to finish the book because we’d gone through all of the theory of what is the Super-Helper Syndrome, which you can say quite simply as and helping others to the detriment of your own well-being or looking after other people. And looking at your own needs and. We’ve gone through. Leave for irrational beliefs that help us typically hold which are the good person belief which is helping because. You want to ultimately prove to yourself that you’re a good person, that you, that you and helping you is a good thing to do. Therefore, I to prove to myself that I’m not any value in this world, I have to help others. There are a lot of people who, who believe that. I mean not consciously, but that when you start to really look at how they behave, it shows up. They help everyone believe, which is about. Just must help everyone seeing the suffering all around you. That’s the one I most sort of associate with. Personally I find constantly I, especially after even now, after writing the book even more, I notice my massive urge to just help wherever there’s an opportunity to help, even when it’s totally not my job. And it’s, you know, it’s completely inappropriate sometimes. You know that you’ll call out now that it’s and that comes from my mother, who is also mentioned quite a lot in the book. She was definitely a very prone. To the Super-Helper Syndrome, especially to the third of those beliefs that help us hold, which is the no needs. Late, which is. I shouldn’t have any late needs and as you were just saying, just Jess was brought up to believe that you shouldn’t have. Needs and my mother was a woman who never demonstrated any needs of her own through her whole life. She had four very selfish sons and her father and a husband who certainly he did some things, but you know. But he didn’t contribute that much either, you know. Yeah. We all depended on him. And she gave and gave and into the community. And in 1000 other ways. And so I saw that. And. And, you know, and she was just sort of. It’s like the whole world suffering came down on her. So that helped everyone. Really. And then the final one, which came up kind of later was that they couldn’t survive without me, which is where you’re looking after one particular person or you’re, you know, maybe a small group, but often a dependent relative or somebody like that. And you feel you’re indispensable and you feel that you, you have a kind of duty to put your own needs to one side, to look after this this person because they. Are really in need. So we’ve done all of that and we’ve summarized that we’ve kind of been moved on into kind of some of the solutions. And then of course, you have to end the book somehow. So coming back to your questions or just as a question really about Chapter 11, and I always think I really didn’t want to just sort of summarize and say well here, here’s what you here’s what we’ve covered. And kind of, and here’s how to take it forward. You know, I’m sure that’s good, but it didn’t feel like, you know, very exciting to me. So that’s. Right. We actually rented a cottage on the Welsh coast which overlooking amazing sea and we and it was 1 morning really early. I just got up and started writing that writing. Jesse’s story which I had known for the last, you know, 20 years. And but he had to make it personal about your. Your journey. And originally, I’m sorry, I’m speaking on your behalf now, but you just didn’t want her story in in the book, and it was our, our publisher, our editor, who said, you know, please can you put it in cause at least then you know, if it doesn’t work, we can take it out. But if I don’t know what there is and so many people as you’ve kind of alluded to sort of say that the most. A lot of the most powerful stuff is the stuff that Jess really bravely put in, I think you. Know and you. Know sort of showed her vulnerability, so.

Josh
Yeah, I was going to say it. It I could see that being very difficult kind of the idea of opening up so that you can share your story. But like Rod said it, I think it’s one of the most relatable parts of the book.

Rod
Yeah, some people say that.

Josh
Yeah, it kind of drives home the this concept of what a super-helper is and you know sharing your. Or a, you know, illustrates it beautifully, like I said.

Jess
Umm it may have helped a bit to have me sort. Of write it in a way, yeah.

Rod
Oh, definitely. Goodness, especially Chapter 11 and Chapter 11. I almost and most of the book we sat, you know, as we’re sitting in front of a, you know, a video call with you now in, in front of the same computer, you know, our shoulders banging and.

Jess
Next to each other in front. Of the same screen with. One microphone, yeah.

Rod
And that’s how. We wrote 90% of the book we wrote. That I mean, we split up some of the stuff. Just did more. Of the we. Interviewed a lot of people, everyone from in sort of intensive care nurses, teachers. You mentioned teachers, all sorts, yeah.

Jess
Accountants, estate agents than anybody, that’s that said they had to experience, you know, helping the detriment of their own well-being. We gave them a little assessment to do initially and if they kind of passed that initial assessment then then we would set up an interview and from all over the world as well with people. So that again, you know, being online was brilliant. Via zoom usually so I could see them. We could make eye contact. We could see each other. We could relate to each other and sometimes. We would even book in a Part 2 because we. Didn’t cover everything you know. So the hours and. About hundreds of hours of data of quality of data analyst at heart, so that’s beautiful for. Me and.

Rod
And you did most of that so yeah.

Jess
And you, whilst Rod was busy, you know.

Rod
And I did a lot of the reading of the background reading. Those since 2000.

Jess
Yeah, getting. Yeah. There’s been a philosopher something some years ago as well. You actually need to bring some of this, and we need to bring in niche. To bring in, you know, the. Biologists today, but I’ll say it was this book could not have been written by one person.

Josh
Ohh yeah. Nietzsche right?

Jess
You know we. Have very different attributes and strengths to bring. So yeah. And the story I think definitely, Rod. What knew most of that and was able to kind of interview me in. That way, and say you. Know but I. I had a very strong boundary in both world. And the editor knew that the baby. It only goes in if it helps the reader understand something you know or elucidates a theme or just gonna sit. Here and make. It baby and one of the reasons. Why we didn’t? Put the story up front to the because we wanted people to go on their own journey, you know, and as you said, does you know as well like start reflecting on their own experience either. Their own or that of other people. So we didn’t want to do that kind of dump that some people do and that’s fine. It works in lots of books where you say, hey, here’s my story and. Here’s why I’ve. Written the book you know. It just felt like it would be a bit too much like oversharing.

Rod
Exactly. And we kind of wanted it to be. It’s a bit like with the with Jess’s coaching clients, they don’t know a lot about you. They meet you as a professional. They meet you as somebody who kind of has some things to say and you know has some, you know hopefully authority and can help them.

Jess
They’re going on through the search engine. Yeah, yeah.

Rod
We wanted the reader to meet Jess like that, you know, and then then you disclose, you know afterwards, you know, it’s a kind of which you probably wouldn’t do in a coaching.

Jess
No, but in the coaching relationship, what tends to happen to people realize. Ohh, you’ve got a social media platform. Ohh you’ve got this so you’ve got that and they’ve become they’ve become to know you. And your themes and the things you talk about, you know? So that was the yeah.

Rod
There’s a level of self disclosure. You weren’t completely comfortable with, actually.

Jess
Yeah. No, I’m not floor. Gone in other ways but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks.

Josh
Well, thank you for sharing your story because you know, as we’ve already covered, that it really drove the point home of, you know, why Super-Helper Syndrome is, is something that people can work through and come out on the other side. You know. But what I was going to mention, just hearing the two of you talk about this, it sounds like you already had a closer relationship and maybe this writing process help kind of bring you together even more. It’s just it sounds like a it sounds. Like a very lovely. A lovely project that you’ve taken on.

Rod
It’s an amazing thing to do together. Can I say that? What? Well, when Jess said to our literary agent that she wanted to write the book on me, she said. Ohh. Really. And what if you split up? [laughs] And you know it is. It is quite a it’s a very intense thing to do together. You know, as I say, we literally for most of it, we’re sitting, you know, as close as we are now in front of a keyboard, debating every single word and. Yeah. And we laughed a lot as you can probably tell. And we but we. There were times when we cried as well and it wasn’t. All always an easy journey, but it was an amazing thing and we also learned how to work together better because you asked earlier whether we shared a psychology practice, anything which we don’t. So it was really the first time we worked on something. I think anything like that. Anyway we have. Nobody have done that I have.

Rod
That kind of help with think other things in your business. But it was, yeah, much more intense and I think we learned how to get the best out of each other. So you know if you writing a book about helping you better be you know be reasonably good at helping each other. Right. Yeah, I suppose.

Jess
Yeah, yeah. And when there when there were tensions. That we couldn’t resolve quickly, either in our relationship or the book. Or related to. Our approach to what happens next or what words go down next, we always said, OK. If it if. Isn’t if we can’t bring compassion to this, let’s just take a break, you know, so. We would either go for. A walk or do. Something else or whatever, but would always come back and. And decided OK, but the book comes first. You know what needs what needs to happen for the book? What needs to happen for the reader, right now.

Rod
Now, and I think that’s the Jess is incredibly tolerant and compassionate and loving person. That was gonna help.

Josh
Yeah, I’ve got an impression of both of you.

Jess
Yeah, we and we do we bring. Such different strengths and characteristics as you. Can probably already tell to anything and I and learning about each other in that way and really yeah, doing like almost being our own psychotherapist for that period as well, Josh and look like, OK well what I can see happening here is this and this and this and that’s not the intention or that’s not whatever it is. And so we will kind of sit down and unpack that.

Rod
It’s like Jess was sort of custodian of the readers experience and Jess is in some ways you could say one of the ideal readers of this book because, yeah.

Josh
Like the avatar of the book, I guess, yeah.

Rod
Exactly so and me as a kind of nerdy writer. What an amazing experience to be sort of writing something and having your ideal reader sitting next to you sort of saying I’m not sure about it because you know, I get carried away and trying to write something. I want to write something. Really beautiful or, you know, with some nice clever metaphor or something like that. And Jess would be sort of saying well. You know, maybe it. Didn’t quite represent the way. The those who experience Super-Helper Syndrome might really be feeling or experiencing thing, and I’d have to say ohh alright then you know and stop and really work out what it was. It wasn’t quite right. So that sort of you know authenticity of. Of, relating to the reader’s experience and to the you know, especially the. Interviewees and all the people that. You have spoken to.

Jess
Can I just can I just rave about you again? One of our one of. Our friends, actually. Was a beta reader and she said. Oh, we were on a call with her at the same time. We said, oh, God, I hope you don’t mind me saying this, but. It really just sound like a woman’s voice. And at this point punches the ego. Yes, you know.

Rod
It sounds like a book written by a woman for women. Yeah, and I’ll come back to that in a second because I have some points made about that. But to a certain extent, that’s probably a really good. And I think I just thought fantastic because it meant that, you know, I just sort of represented.

Jess
We’d worked all year.

Rod
With you, your experience in a way that wasn’t trampling. All over your. But coming back to that thing about it, because we’ve been asked that a lot and the obvious question on the back of that is it just women? Well, no. You said you relate to it a lot. And one of the things that struck us we’ve done some particularly festivals that this, this this year since the, you know the book’s been. Out a while. And we did some festivals and particular festivals. The number of men coming up to us afterwards and coming up to me and talks and saying that that’s me and has been really a revelation because I think I probably did think when we started writing it that it. Was massively more women than men, and maybe it is. I don’t know. I’m not really interested in that. I’m just interested if you’re a helper, whoever you are, you know, regardless of gender or anything else, then you know then I hope that this book has something for you. But it has been striking how many men come up to us and said that that’s me. You know one of them. His wife then said I want. To just say something, give up.

Jess
And she could have nudged him with her over and rolled her eyes. So it’s bloody annoying.

Josh
So, you know, going back to Super-Helper Syndrome and people that may have trouble setting boundaries for themselves, what are some suggestions you might have? How can they start to let go of those harmful beliefs that they may have that are helping perpetuate the Super-Helper Syndrome?

Jess
In the book, each one of those four irrational beliefs gets its own chapter, and towards the end of its own chapter. We have come up with a process that we call deconstructing and so we help them really deconstruct that each of those beliefs and take them. Through five different steps, one of the ways in which we, well, in which we propose to people, is to understand what your rational belief is and why you’re holding it. You know, unpack that first. That’s. Going to be. A door opener for you. That’s gonna open the gates to you. Then, having the potential to try and. Change your behavior. Which brings me to boundaries and there is a beautiful juicy section. I mean, we probably could have written three books on boundaries, but you know, we had to keep a succinct. We used a fantastic case study and it and when that person read their own case study, they contacted me saying thank you so much for representing it in such a. True way and like. You know that is exactly what happened. So I’m really, really delighted with that and a few other people have said that about their own words as well. And with boundaries there are. I suppose three very simple things to say right now thinking about. Who you’re helping, how you’re helping them and when you’re helping them. And to think about it in those simple terms might help to initiate change even today or tomorrow, you know, to the listeners. Here with us now. So let’s take who? Let’s say you are helping as part of your job. So you spend, you know, every day in a very obvious helping role. Are you then also helping your friend or neighbor in the evening? Are you helping someone in your family? Are you also taking on? A voluntary role at the weekends. Now all of that’s lovely and commended and laudable. But if you’re doing some of that and it’s actually affecting you detrimentally, then which part of The Who, who do you want to stop helping first? Or is maybe you have a friend in your life? And we talked the reader through this beautiful one of 49 activities in the book that we’ve designed called the Friendometer. You know, maybe they’re not such a friend, but maybe they’re a helpee and maybe you are accidentally maintaining their dependency on you. For reasons that we unpack in. The book maybe. Therefore you could just push back gently to that person and say, you know what? I’d love to be able to do that, but not now. If you have the same problem next Wednesday, then maybe we can put some time in and I can try and help you.

Josh
Yeah, I was just thinking maybe like scaling back the time that the person helps, not necessarily stopping altogether.

Jess
Absolutely, yeah. And it might be the. How are you helping and as, as you know, Josh, we pull up four different ways of helping in particular and it. Might be that you. Instead of jumping in with that compulsion to help and rescue someone from the drama in their life, or the hideous relationship or the hideous work life they’ve got, you simply help in a different way by maybe just listening to them offload for 10 minutes. You know every now and then or hugging them when they cry rather than jumping in and trying. To offer advice or things to. To suggest how they should change. Things right now, because let’s face it, the shoulds are never that helpful. So that’s the when and the how. That I make. And The Who? I can’t remember, I’ve. Lost my thread.

Josh
Who, how and where?

Rod
When, but where would be equally valid.

Josh
When, sorry.

Jess
Thinking about my mum, you know when she was alive, she would phone five times a day, thereabouts. And each time. It will be in different need and a different request and a different demand and you know I would try and put in boundaries. I’d try and say hey mom. Instead of, you know, instead of me picking up. On the on a Wednesday when I’m at work or when I’m with clients. How about let’s save it to Sunday. I can give you a whole hour of my all of my attention on Sunday. You know, at 12:00 or something like that. So that’s about when and me trying to set a boundary of when I’m gonna give time to others. And when I’m gonna try and protect my own needs.

Josh
I would say just based on my own experience, it takes practice. And sometimes it takes other people to coach you through it like just and that’s going back to, you know, talking about. It’s difficult to ask for help sometimes, you know, asking for help with, you know, should I tell this person, you know, I can’t do this today or, you know, maybe another time, I mean that’s another way of asking for help is, you know, with trying to learn how to. Set boundaries in a comfortable way.

Jess
Yeah. And sometimes you can enroll support from other people and you can say, hey, I just need, you know, one client, you know, as a, as a mother. And she’s now telling her family actually give Mommy half an hour on a Saturday morning in bed quietly, and then we can do something fun together after that, you know, in more support from others. But we’ll know and. But it’s very difficult to start setting boundaries with people who are expecting you to say yes to requests all the time. They might begin to take it personally. They might begin to resent you. And let’s face it, no one who’s benefiting from your help is really. Going to flag it up to say. Hey, you should stop helping. Me so much. You know, unless I love and respect you. Yeah, so.

Josh
Well, thank you for sharing that. I feel like a lot of people listening will take that to heart because like we’ve discussed it, it can be difficult to know when to say when as far as dividing what they want to do versus taking care of themselves. I appreciate you sharing that.

As we’re wrapping up here, is there anything you’d like to plug in addition to the book? Where can we follow you online?

Jess
Oh, I’m @jessbakerpsych—that’s PSYCH at the end—on all socials. You can use #superhelper, #superhelpersyndrome, and you can look at the multitude of random various reels and celebrations and things on social media platforms. They can find my website jessbaker.co.uk.

In addition to that, for any readers, we do hold a free Facebook group.

Josh
Oh, I should check that out.

Jess
Yes, Josh. Please do.

Josh
Sounds great.

I feel like I could talk to you all day because you’re lovely people.

Jess
Thank you so much for asking us, Josh.

Josh
Yeah, I really appreciate this. The reason this book resonates with me so much is because I feel like it’s a resource that I can use for years to come. So I, you know, I can’t say enough good things about it and not to put you on the spot. But yeah, I. I just have high praise for it, so I really am thankful that you made time to talk with me. And that you wrote the book.

Rod
Thanks so much.

Jess
That’s deeply moving. Yeah. Thanks, Josh. I really appreciate you giving us air time.

Josh
This is The Plural of You. I’m Josh Morgan and the show’s website is pluralofyou.org. That’s all for now. I thank you for being kind today. Take care.